Source: CZ『s Untold Story: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Binance』s Founder; Compiled by: A Fish CoolFish

Summary of key points

In this episode of All In Podcast, Binance founder CZ dives into his personal growth journey, his entrepreneurial path from working part-time at McDonald’s to founding the world’s largest cryptocurrency exchange, and the valuable lessons he learned when facing challenges. He also shares his vision for the future of cryptocurrency, as well as his insights on success, wealth, and the meaning of life.

Summary of exciting ideas

• Early life experience and education: CZ spent his teenage years in Canada, worked part-time at McDonald's, later studied computer science at McGill University, and worked in financial trading system development in Tokyo and New York.

• all-in Cryptocurrency: After being exposed to Bitcoin in 2013, CZ was so convinced of its potential that he sold his Shanghai apartment and devoted himself entirely to the crypto industry, holding on even during the bear market.

• Entrepreneurship and Challenges: The experience of founding Binance was fraught with challenges, and he emphasized the importance of resilience, adaptability, the ability to deal with uncertainty, and sticking to principles.

• Definition of success: Success is not just about money, but also includes health, family, time freedom, values, contribution and positive impact on the world. Money is only one dimension of happiness. After reaching a certain level, more money cannot bring more happiness.

• Life advice: You can’t be too stupid, but you don’t need to be particularly smart either. There are many other factors, such as principles, values, emotional intelligence, etc. that are equally important. The only thing you can do is change yourself. Just break through a little bit every day and keep yourself in the 120%, 110%, 130% zone. If you can stick with it for thirty years and have some luck, you're likely to be quite successful.

• ......

1. From China to Canada

Chamath: CZ, welcome to the All In Podcast. I want to go back to the beginning because I feel like a lot of people don't understand your background as well as they should. One thing that really interests me is that your early years growing up in Canada were very similar to mine. You worked at McDonald's and I worked at Burger King. But before that, your parents immigrated from China around 1989, how did that happen?

CZ: My father actually went to Canada to study as early as 1984. He can come back to see us basically twice a year, but most of the time he is in Canada.

He was a professor at the time, first going to the University of Toronto as an exchange student, and a few years later transferring to the University of British Columbia (UBC) in Vancouver. We were applying for immigration at the time. In those days, it was actually very difficult to get a passport, usually taking three to four years. We started applying around 1985, and it took about two or three years to get the passport.

Chamath: You mean the Chinese passport?

CZ: Yes, Chinese passport. Once you get your passport, it will take a few more years to get your visa. The process at that time was so long. After 1989, getting a visa became easier. But the hardest part is always the passport. After that, it becomes difficult for the government to issue new passports. But we were very lucky because we had obtained our passports before. So after that, as the visa policy was relaxed, we successfully obtained the visa. I remember very clearly that my mother took me to queue at the US Consulate - at that time, the US Consulate handled Canadian affairs, or they worked together.

It was August 6, 1989, and we queued outside the U.S. Consulate for three days. We even camped out there to get in line, and we had to rotate people every three hours. My mother, my sister and I took turns lining up. It was the kind of long queue that stretched as far as the eye could see.

Chamath: You were only 12 years old. Did those events and discussions shape your worldview to some extent?

CZ: To be honest, from a conscious point of view, maybe not at that moment. But I was living on a university campus (University of Science and Technology of China), one of the top four universities in China. I was surrounded by college students, seven, eight, or nine years older than me, and I often heard them discussing all kinds of things. Even though I was only 12 and not deeply involved, the sounds definitely left some imprint on my subconscious.

Chamath: How did it feel after moving to Vancouver? Did you speak English at the time?

CZ: Vancouver is great and a completely different world to me. A brand new country, full of green grass, extremely open spaces, high living standards, and even the fruits look fuller. I studied English for two years in high school, but I was not fluent at all and could barely speak it.

Chamath: What were your parents' working conditions like at that time? Are they having a hard time?

CZ: My father was studying for a PhD at the time, and he had a monthly stipend of about 1,000 Canadian dollars. We were living in UBC’s faculty housing for students with families. It was a small apartment with only two bedrooms. My mother was originally a math and history teacher in China, but because of the language barrier, she went to work as a sewing worker in a garment factory on the third day after arriving in Canada. She worked there for a long time, probably seven to ten years, always making minimum wage.

Chamath: This sounds exactly like the situation my family was in. I had my first job when I was 14, did you too?

CZ: Yeah, I started working at McDonald’s when I was 14 or 15 years old. I remember very clearly that the minimum wage in Vancouver at the time was $6, but McDonald's had a special exemption for hiring teenagers and only had to pay $4.50. I applied on my 14th birthday and a week later I was flipping burgers in the back kitchen. That was the first time in my life that I made money.

2. CZ’s early career: surprisingly ordinary

Chamath: You are not the kind of precocious technical genius who spends all your time programming and studying computer science, are you? Or are you the one?

CZ: No, I wouldn’t describe myself that way. I consider myself a technical guy, I studied computer science. I was interested in programming in high school, but I wasn't a programming wizard, not a truly genius programmer. I think I'm a pretty good programmer and have written some pretty good code in my career. Around the age of 28 to 30, I moved away from pure coding jobs and started doing more business development, sales, etc. That was about eight years of my career.

Chamath: So you're just a regular immigrant kid trying to adjust to Canada. Do you have many friends?

CZ: Yes, I have many friends.

Chamath: Do you only have Asian friends?

CZ: Yes, both Asian and non-Asian friends. In fact, in our school, most Asians only play with Asians, but I am an exception. I also have white friends. I have all kinds of friends. My teenage years in Canada were amazing, they were some of the best years of my life and I feel like those years really shaped me and made me a happy person. I'm usually a very happy person.

Chamath: How did you feel when you failed to get into the University of Waterloo and had to "send" to McGill University? Does this make you feel stupid?

CZ: Actually, my sister went to Waterloo. I was torn between Waterloo, McGill and U of T, but I knew I didn't want to stay in Vancouver and go to UBC, I wanted to go to a different city. I actually got an offer from UBC, but I just knew I didn't want to go there. The mother of a friend whom I respected very much at the time suggested to me that you might want to become a doctor because doctors have a good life and high social status. I took her advice and studied biology, but Waterloo was not the kind of school that specializes in biology.

So I went to McGill. But after one semester I decided: No, biology is not for me. I want to switch to computer science.

Chamath: Is your college life typical? Will you find a great job during the summer, or will you just be an ordinary college student? By the way, how did you pay for your tuition?

CZ: I work every summer vacation. I work part-time during the summer and part-time during the semester. So I have no debt, and I insist on not being in debt when I graduate. The first year I got about $6,000 CAD from my dad, and the second year it was less, my sister gave me $3,000. I have never taken any family money since, am completely self-sufficient, and graduated with no student loans. I was very lucky, but I did work every summer.

Chamath: Did you graduate from McGill’s Department of Computer Science?

CZ: Actually, I didn’t graduate from McGill. I studied there for four years. I got an internship my junior year, another one my senior year, and then it just kept getting extended, and extended, and extended. I never returned to McGill. I later discovered that applying for a work visa in Japan required a bachelor’s degree. This was in 2000, at the height of the dot-com bubble. So I participated in an online education program called the American Computer Science Institute and got a degree there. So technically, I'm a graduate of that school.

Chamath: Which internship of yours led you to work there permanently?

CZ: My internship is in Tokyo. I've been programming since freshman year, and I wrote simulation software for a company called OriginalSim. In my junior year, I joined a company called Fusion Systems Japan in Tokyo, Japan. They are developing order execution systems (Order Execution Systems) for Tokyo Stock Exchange brokers.

Chamath: Is that a Japanese company with an office in Canada?

CZ: No, I went to Tokyo. It was actually a company opened by a group of Americans in Tokyo.

Chamath: What you were thinking was, this is an adventure, I'm going to live in Tokyo for the summer.

CZ: Yeah, I was a college student at the time, and living in Tokyo was like a dream, it was so fun, and Tokyo felt like it was from the future.

Chamath: What kind of software do you write?

CZ: Mainly order execution software. That is, the software that circulates orders and drives transactions. Basically the same style as the software that drives Binance today. Virtually all of the software development I've been involved in has involved no decision-making.

Chamath: So when you first came into contact, it wasn't like, "Wow, this is so cool, this is so interesting." Or is it more like "Okay, the company asked me to write this code, I understand the principles, so let's do it"? Are you attracted to this field, or purely because of work requirements?

CZ: Initially it was purely for work needs. I was too young at that time and didn't understand the differences between different walks of life. After joining the company, the project assigned by the company was to develop a digital image storage system - not the iPhone photo album, but Nikon's medical imaging system. But it soon became apparent that the company’s core product was actually an order execution system.

I worked on this project and it became the main thread of my career. I like this field because it requires deep technical skills. It’s all about efficiency—the pursuit of ultimate speed and minimal latency. This pursuit deeply attracts me, and efficiency drive is my subconscious driving force.

Chamath: In high-frequency trading, how is this pursuit of low latency reflected in the code?

CZ: There are several levels. The first layer is to make the software itself efficient and fast, removing all database queries and completing them all in memory. Also reduce any form of extra calculations and simplify risk checks. More advanced ones will use network chip cards such as FPGAs, which do not have to go through the processor, and the round-trip delay can be reduced from 100 microseconds to 20 microseconds.

Chamath: That company you worked for in Japan, was it successful?

CZ：成功了。 That company was acquired by a Nasdaq-listed company just before 2000. The amount is about $52 million, which is quite a lot of money.

Chamath: So, was that when you realized—wait, there’s an opportunity here? Or is something else going on?

CZ: No, I was still too young at the time, only in my early twenties. According to Japanese parlance, I was a "salary worker." After that company was acquired, there was a serious culture conflict between the parent company and the original company. This was the first time I realized that mergers and acquisitions may not be successful. The two managements were in constant conflict. Later, these partners started a new business and founded Building 2 Company. But this time I didn’t get a penny, but the other partners made a lot. They rented a fancy office, only to have the company fail after only a year. This illustrates that past success is no guarantee of future success. In fact, they spend huge sums of money to build luxurious offices but have no source of income. The company eventually folded in 2001.

3. The first company in Shanghai

CZ: In early 2001, I was looking for a new job. Bloomberg was hiring at the time, and this was before 911. I actually got the offer before 9/11, when I was still in Tokyo and Bloomberg was in New York. After 911, I called and asked: Is the position still available? Do you still want me to go? They said: Do you still want to come? I said: I think so. So I went to New York in November 2001. I worked there for four years, still doing the same thing.

I joined as a Senior Developer and was assigned to a team called Tradebook Futures. Not long after the team was formed, they developed a system that allowed users to trade futures on the Bloomberg terminal. But before these functions were scattered in different systems, they were later integrated into the responsibility of this team.

Chamath: What were you pursuing at the time? stability? Why choose Bloomberg? Because of New York or something?

CZ: I was just a young guy, maybe 24 or 25 years old. I want to experience different fields and explore the direction of life. I knew I didn’t have enough experience to start my own business. At the time, I was working in a small company in Tokyo with about 200 people. And Bloomberg had 3,000 people. To me that's big business. The company has various benefits such as luxurious offices, fish tanks, free meals, etc. I joined as a senior developer, had some great supervisors, and was promoted three times in two years. Initially leading a team of 60 people, I then moved into management roles as the team grew to around 80 people. I stopped coding and started managing.

Chamath: Then you resigned and went to China? How did it happen?

CZ:: In early 2005, friends I met in Japan wanted to start a new financial technology company. They were in Asia at the time and discussed Tokyo, Shanghai or Hong Kong. They say Shanghai is likely to be the most active place for financial technology in the future. We should have chosen Hong Kong, but it turned out to be more lively. A total of six of us went to Shanghai, four white people, one Japanese, and me. I'm the only one who can speak Chinese.

Chamath: What do you think?

CZ: Our idea is to bring Wall Street trading technology to China and serve Chinese brokers and exchanges.

Chamath: So when you started your company - it was your first venture. Did you have an attitude of "Okay, that's it?"

CZ: Basically.

Chamath: Did you consider equity distribution at that time? For example, issues such as equity structure table? Or do you simply think "Great, let's act now"? What is the actual situation?

CZ: Actually it’s not one sixth. At that time, the core members held probably 39% or 40% of the shares, and the remaining five people split it equally. So I only owned 11% of the shares at that time, and I didn’t understand it at all. I couldn’t figure out the difference between common shares and preferred shares. But that’s how it went, and I was the junior partner on the team. After arriving in China, I started to contact potential customers - after all, I can speak Chinese, so I started negotiating with potential customers. I went to negotiate with a broker, and later found out that we were registered as a wholly foreign-owned enterprise (WFOE). At that time, Chinese financial institutions were not allowed to cooperate with WFOE.

We discovered this situation after we founded the company in Shanghai, so the company transformed into providing any IT system to any company, doing everything. In the early days, we had many customers in the automotive industry: Shanghai General Motors, Shanghai Volkswagen, and SAIC Motor were all our customers. About three or four years later, we set up an office in Hong Kong and began serving financial institutions such as Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, and Credit Suisse. The company expanded in this way. The company got to 200 people, and it was still going strong when I left. I worked there for eight years until I left in 2013.

Chamath: As junior partners, do you pay dividends directly?

CZ: Yes. However, the actual dividends were not much. I reinvested most of my savings back into the company and never cashed out a penny. But after a few years, when the company stabilized and the partners’ salaries were enough to send their children to international schools, we all received six-figure annual salaries.

4. Discover Bitcoin

Chamath: So far, these experiences do not indicate that you will start Binance.

CZ: Not at all. I didn’t even know it at the time.

Chamath: So how old were you in 2013 and 2014?

CZ: I was 36 years old in 2013

Chamath: So, you're still a salaried employee, the junior partner on that project, everything is going great, the kids are in private school. So what happened next?

CZ: Later I came into contact with Bitcoin. A friend of mine told me, "CZ, you have to look at this thing called Bitcoin." I started looking into it and it took me about six months to fully understand it. That started around July 2013.

Chamath: Is that because you read the white paper and thought, "I have to read it again, read it again," or is it something else?

CZ: That’s pretty much it. And there was also Bitcoin Talk at the time. Basically through these.

Chamath: Was that friend who showed you Bitcoin a colleague of yours or a random friend you met in Shanghai?

CZ: It’s a friend. We have no business dealings. His name is Ron Cao. I guess he now runs Sky9 Capital, and at the time he was managing director of China at Lightspeed Ventures.

Ron Cao

We had a private poker game, a modest one, pitting a group of struggling entrepreneurs against VCs. VCs have money and time. This is a very interesting game. During a poker game, Ron Cao said: "CZ, you should check out this thing called Bitcoin." I said: "OK, Bitcoin" and we chatted for a while.

Bobby Lee was also present at the time. He was working at Walmart at the time and was about to resign to join BTC China as CEO. As part of that deal, Li Qiyuan invited Ron Cao to invest as a representative of Lightspeed Venture Partners. That was in July 2013. I thought to myself, it looks like these two are very serious about Bitcoin.

Bobby Lee left

CZ: I had lunch with Li Qiyuan the next day, and he said: "Invest 10% of your net worth in Bitcoin. Although there is a small probability that it will return to zero, then you will lose 10%; but the more likely probability is that it will increase 10 times, doubling your net worth." I thought to myself, "Sounds pretty reliable." So I started to study the white paper seriously, and spent a full half a year. It wasn’t until the end of 2013 that I really made up my mind to get ready. But in that time, the price of Bitcoin soared from $70 in mid-2013 to $1,000 by the end of 2013. It has risen more than 15 times.

Chamath: How did you feel at that time?

CZ: I think I came too late. I thought to myself, “I wish I’d ​​gotten in sooner.” But the truth is, no matter when you get into Bitcoin, you always feel like you’re late. Because every person in the industry you talk to has bought in before you did.

Chamath: When you were learning it, did you have any communication with the Shanghai community?

CZ: There was a very small circle in Shanghai at that time. Basically I was willing to talk to anyone in the world who was interested in Bitcoin. I have several friends in Taiwan who were working at TSMC at the time and later quit their jobs to try to make Bitcoin mining chips. 虽然那个创业项目没能成功，但他们是我当时交流的一群人。

There is another group of people who are mainly miners. There is a man named "Shenyu" who is very famous in China and is a big miner. He still runs F2Pool to this day. They are in Hangzhou and often come to Shanghai to communicate with me.

Sacred Fish

CZ: The most important thing was the Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas around December 2013. I flew there and met everyone. The best in the industry were present, about 200 people. Vitalik (the founder of Ethereum) is there, and so are Matt Roszak and Charlie Lee (the founder of Litecoin). It's still the same people today.

At that time, Ross Ulbricht, the founder of "Silk Road", was arrested. The media is reporting that Bitcoin is just a tool used by drug lords. But when you go to that conference, what you see is a bunch of young people, a bunch of geeks. They are very nice people, like Vitalik you can talk to and he is very easygoing.

Chamath: When you were doing all this, were you still working part-time at your original company?

CZ: Yes, that was in the final stages.

Chamath: You can tell your partners: "Hey guys, I'm going to Las Vegas for a few days and I'll be back soon."

CZ: Basically. When I came back, I said to my partners: "We should build a Bitcoin payment system." Because BitPay was a big player in the industry at the time, and they had just raised $4 million in 2013.

Chamath: So you wanted to make a Chinese version of BitPay. Your partners must be thinking: "What are you talking about?" At that point, you still haven't bought any Bitcoin?

CZ: I didn’t buy it. At that time I probably only had 1 Bitcoin. It was only worth $1,000 at the time.

Chapter 5: Take the plunge into cryptocurrency

Chamath: So, what happened next?

CZ: So I told my partners that I felt this was the greatest opportunity I had ever encountered in my life. I realized at that time that I had encountered two fundamental technologies in my life: the first was the Internet, which I was too young to participate in much at the time, and the second was Bitcoin. I was 35, 36 years old and I didn’t want to miss it. I think the next opportunity for this kind of opportunity may have to wait 15 years, which is now AI. So for me, the goal was very clear: I had to do something in this industry.

I told my partners that I was resigning and going to work in the Bitcoin industry. At the same time, I also need to buy Bitcoin, but I don’t have much cash. So I said: "I plan to sell my apartment in Shanghai and buy it all in Bitcoin." Selling the house took several months.

Chamath: So you rented a house after selling it?

CZ: At that time, I sold my house and my family moved back to Tokyo. We rented an apartment in Tokyo, and I often traveled to Shanghai on business. That was also when I started living apart from my family. That house sold for about $900,000, close to a million. The house payment is received in batches, and I buy one for each payment. The first purchase price was $800, and then the price of Bitcoin fell again and again, falling to $600 and $400. My average purchase cost was about $600.

Chamath: Incredible. So now you have a Bitcoin position but still no job

CZ: In fact, I was also looking for a job at the time, and my goal was very clear. I was only looking for a job in the Bitcoin industry. There was only about two or three weeks between the time I resigned and when the job was finalized.

Chamath: Who hired you?

CZ: I first talked to Bobby Lee and he wanted to hire me. But then Blockchain.info came along and Roger Ver introduced me to them. I am the third member of the Blockchain.info team. The first two members at the time were founder Ben Reeves and Nicholas Carey, who had just been hired as CEO. Since Ben wanted to keep the title of CTO, my title was VP of Engineering. I joined them and flew to York, three hours north of London, to spend some time figuring out what to do.

Chamath: Is it going well?

CZ: It didn’t go well. We expanded our team to 18 people. Later, Peter Smith joined as CFO and wanted to raise funds. At that time, Coinbase had just completed $30 million in financing, which was big news at the time. Later, Peter Smith managed to become CEO, pushing Nicholas Carey to the position of product manager. The company culture changed and I quit, along with many of the developers I hired. Ben Reeves sold most of his shares and left a few months later. I only stayed there for six or seven months. Although the results were not ideal, I learned a lot.

CZ: For example, Ben Reeves said that we don’t need a company or an office, everyone works remotely, and all wages are paid in Bitcoin. I later applied these experiences to Binance in depth. I also learned about guerrilla marketing. At the time, Blockchain.info was the largest user platform in the industry, with 2 million wallets, more than Coinbase at the time. And their entire marketing tool is a post on the BitcoinTalk.org forum, where Ben Reeves replied to the user. This made me realize that it was possible to achieve great success through guerrilla marketing.

CZ: After leaving, He Yi recruited me into OKCoin. He Yi said to me at the time: "Why do you want to work for a wallet company? Your experience should be in handling order execution and exchanges." So I joined OKCoin as CTO

Chamath: Was there competition then?

CZ: During my onboarding process, BTC China approached me again. At that time, OKCoin gave me 5% of the equity, and Li Qiyuan offered 10%. As a result, OKCoin followed up on this offer within three hours. I finally decided to go to Beijing to join OKCoin. He Yi only had 1% equity at the time, and she recruited me as a higher-level partner. I was only at OKCoin for about eight months, which didn’t last long.

Chamath: Why?

CZ: There are still cultural differences. There are some practices that I cannot agree with. For example, simple promotion methods: they promote discounts on handling fees, but users must actively apply to enjoy them. This type of propaganda doesn't work for everyone, despite what they advertise it to be. Little issues like that.

6. Founding Binance

Chamath: So how did we get from there to Binance?

CZ: In 2015, several old colleagues wanted to build a Bitcoin exchange in Tokyo, because it was a year after the collapse of Mt. Gox and there was a vacuum in the Japanese market. On the day I decided to leave OKCoin, two developers came to me and said that they had also resigned. So the three of us decided to do something.

CZ: As CEO, I take the majority of the shares, am responsible for financing, and use my own savings to pay them salaries. I don’t get a penny myself. We quickly made a demo, downloaded an open source exchange system, and slightly changed the UI.

Chamath: Do you fork the open source project directly? Is this Binance?

CZ: No, we didn’t say this was Binance, this happened before Binance. I was transparent throughout and made it clear: this demo was rolled out in two days and is currently only a proof of concept, not a final product. That's it. At that time we had a script that scraped Bitfinex market data. Bitfinex was considered a large exchange at the time. We directly copied their order book, and the order book flashed in real time to display the trading dynamics, and the demonstration effect was very vivid.

After seeing this, investors were amazed: Wow, this technology is really powerful. But it's not just a demo. When they ask questions, I can give in-depth answers. For example, if you ask me "How to build a high-speed exchange architecture", I can elaborate on all the technical principles I have learned such as memory matching and database identification. So I can dig deeper when asking questions. My expertise is there. Right. They said at the time: "This technology is cool, but you won't be successful running a Bitcoin exchange in Japan because you don't speak Japanese." They suggested that I sell this technology to existing exchanges, because many exchanges in Japan have poor technology.

Two weeks later, we signed a contract with an exchange, and they paid us $180,000 in advance (total price 360,000). This finally allows me to no longer have to pay my salary out of my own pocket. So we transformed into a software service provider, which is "Exchange as a Service" (SaaS)

Chamath: Many people believe that great companies are born in a flash of inspiration, but your story is more like continuous grinding, learning, and trying. It is this non-explicit iteration that finally produces results.

CZ: Yes, I think most people idealize the entrepreneurial process. They hate the hardship, but yearn for the results, just like the story of Facebook or Microsoft, where the college dropout wrote code in the garage, and then suddenly became successful. But in reality, the growth process of Binance or Tesla is also full of hardships. You have to try countless different paths, and success doesn’t start in the obvious direction. So I think those three are special cases, and they have had smooth sailing from the beginning.

Chamath: So let’s go back to the startup days, you were licensing software

CZ: Our software outsourcing business is doing very well. We have signed about 30 exchange customers within two years. This is a SaaS model with very stable revenue. But in March 2017, the Chinese government shut down most of our customers. By May, we realized we had to pivot.

CZ: At the end of May, three of my people wanted to imitate a cryptocurrency trading platform. I saw a man named Yang Linke, who was once a partner of Bitcoin China. He launched an ICO and raised $15 million in 10 days. At the time, he only had a document and website, not even a product. I thought, if he can do it, I can do it too.

Yang Linke

CZ： 原本我们打算走风投路线，但看到 ICO 的热潮后，我在 6 月中旬决定：我们也做 ICO 。 I went to a conference in mid-June 2017, and everyone was talking about ICOs. Everyone said to CZ: You must do an ICO, you must do an ICO. So in mid-June, specifically June 14, I convened the team and decided to launch an ICO and started writing a white paper.

Chamath: Were you already well-known in the Bitcoin community or the cryptocurrency community—whether it was China, Japan, or elsewhere—at that time?

CZ: I do have some visibility. At that time, I was working at the Blockchain Information Network, and many people knew me. That platform was the most popular at the time. During my time at OKCoin, I served as CTO, was very active on social media, and managed international operations for non-English/non-Chinese markets—after all, no one on the team spoke English better than me. So I do have a bit of a reputation in the circle.

Chamath: To do an ICO at that time, you really needed some reputation or background.

CZ: That’s right. But that’s the advantage of being an early entrant – attend a few 200-person meetings and by the second time people know you. By the third time, everyone will say "Oh, you are an expert" and "You are already a veteran in the industry."

Chamath: Who bought Binance’s ICO?

CZ: To be honest, to this day I don’t know who the specific buyer is. Judging from user distribution, probably 80% to 90% of ICO buyers are Chinese. There are also some international buyers involved. Data shows that approximately 20,000 people participated in ICO

Chamath: So even though Chinese exchanges were banned, ICOs were still allowed at the time?

CZ: No, ICOs were not banned at the time. Let me be clear: the exchange clients we serve are primarily stamp trading platforms, not cryptocurrency exchanges. Cryptocurrency exchanges were not banned in March, they were stopped after we launched.

Chamath: You really walk a tightrope. How many shares of the company did you sell?

CZ: We only launched BNB tokens and did not participate in equity distribution. There is no equity involved at all. We sold 60% of our tokens and raised approximately $15 million.

Chamath: What was your initial token economic model for the BNB token?

CZ: We have proposed many solutions, but the most core one that can be implemented quickly is: users holding BNB can enjoy a 50% discount on handling fees when trading on the Binance platform. But we also promise that BNB will eventually have an independent blockchain and decentralized ecosystem, and we have also planned three or four functions.

Chamath: You must have been ecstatic at the time, right? Thinking: Wow, we raised $15 million. Now we are launching the exchange. But in September, everything changes, so what do you do?

CZ: Yes, on September 4, seven different departments of the Chinese government jointly issued a notice. The first one is that China will no longer allow cryptocurrency exchanges, ICOs, and mining. We immediately decided that we had to move our position. At that time, although Chinese users accounted for about 30%, users from other parts of the world still accounted for 70%. After our evaluation, we determined that even if we lose these 30% of users, we can still survive. In fact we are surviving pretty well. Finally we returned to Tokyo.

I know Japan and Tokyo.对我来说，那不是个陌生的国度。所以我提议说，咱们搬去东京吧。当时我们大概有 30 个人，大家都搬去了。

Chamath：那币安最初上线时是瞬间爆红？还是需要耗费精力寻找产品市场契合点，靠首批狂热用户口口相传？病毒式传播是怎么开始的？流动性究竟如何建立起来的？

CZ：币安的产品本身发展得相当不错，但代币价格从 ICO 发行价下跌了 30-40%，花了三周才回升。当时加密货币市场依然火热，产品市场契合度是存在的——这并非新概念，只是加密货币间的交易平台。

Chamath：那么 ICO 就至关重要了，对吧？因为持有者会想：既然我持有代币，就能享受手续费折扣。这就是选择币安的原因。但平台架构是否更优？速度和稳定性是否显著领先？

CZ：当时上线时，你能很明显发现在币安下单的速度要远超竞争平台，交易所系统的性能状况显而易见了。

Chamath：2017 年那会儿，你们的主要竞争对手有哪些？

CZ：当时最大的是 Polonex 和 Bittrex。 还有几家中国平台，当时有火币、OKEx、OKCoin。西方市场有 Coinbase，Gemini 那时还没成立，是后来才出现的。 Bitstamp 和 Bitfenix 当时也在，不过现在规模都缩小很多了

Chamath: 你现在 40 多岁。 币安正处于疯狂增长中。 你是如何内化这种成功的？你会对自己说「这是怎么回事？发生了什么？」这类的话吗？

CZ: 是的，确实有一些非常超现实的时刻，你会觉得「这是真的吗？」。 比如有一次我问我们的收入是多少，她报了一个数字。 我说：「这太疯狂了，我们不可能赚这么多。你确定吗？」 她说：「我确定。」 我说：「这个数字肯定不对，我们肯定是差了一个数量级。」 然后我们反复核对了两遍、三遍，结果是正确的。 That's crazy.

还有一个时期，在 BNB 价格回升的三周里。 当时 BNB 的发行价大约是 10 美分，一度跌到 6 美分。 然后我们宣布了何一加入的消息。 之后的两三周里，每次我睡觉醒来，代币就涨了 20%；开完会出来，代币又涨了 20%；甚至去趟洗手间回来，它又涨了 20%。

Chamath: 那感觉一定快得让你恍惚：等等，我突然有钱了？

CZ: 这个其实来得稍晚一点。 2018 年初，也就是币安运营大概七八个月的时候，《福布斯》（Forbes）把我放到了封面上。

Chamath:当时他们是怎么找到你的？让你上封面

CZ: 其实我也不清楚。 但当时《福布斯》正在做加密货币特辑，而且他们已经用上了 Vitalik 摆酷手势的照片。所以他们邀请了我们，联系了负责公关的部门——当时其实是何一的团队，四五个姑娘组成的团队。何一说《福布斯》想做专题报道并拍摄照片，我觉得你该去。我当时抗拒得很，但她们说我们是新品牌。 《福布斯》还能帮我们提升品牌知名度。我就说行吧，去吧，于是去拍了照。那是我人生第一组写真，当然有人给我化妆，第一次化妆。

福布斯封面 左 cz 右 Vitalik

Chamath: 那么 CZ，金钱是什么？它重要吗？ 当你在 40 多岁赚到大钱时，金钱意味着什么？

CZ: 我认为当时我年纪足够大，经历过几件事。第一，我年纪大了。四十多岁了。不像二十出头的年轻人，整天跑兰博基尼、 狂欢派对。我老了，不适合那些。再者，我的性格相当稳定，不会为外物过度兴奋。还有一件事（并非炫耀），我从勉强财务自由到登上《福布斯》封面。

当时我恍然：等等，我到底有多富有？连自己都不清楚。翻开钱包时，感觉毫无变化。 《福布斯》封面？对我来说毫无改变。可人们说：你看，现在你可能是亿万富翁了。我心想 「我真有亿万身家？感觉不像啊。」就连一个月前，可能不到一个月，当时我们离开中国去日本时，我订了经济舱。他却说：「不，我们该升舱商务，这样能躺着睡。」我心想，「嗯，有道理。」 就是这样。

所以，我就是有这种习惯。当你持续赚钱时，比如从 100 万变成 1000 万，你可能会想买辆豪车；到 1 亿时，你可能想买艘游艇什么的。但到 10 亿时——我可没经历那种循序渐进的过程。我只是从相对还行，到突然登上《福布斯》封面。 游艇之类的东西。到十亿时——我没经历这种阶梯式过程。我直接从相对普通的生活跃升到登上《福布斯》封面。所以没养成太多那种消费习惯。

Chamath: 现在这意味着什么？你是十亿富豪还是百亿富豪， 这一切意味着什么？

CZ: 我觉得金钱有两点作用：第一，照顾好自己，有食物和住所，这其实只需要很少的钱。真的，满足这些根本不需要太多。人们常被各种复杂概念迷惑，但生活本不需要奢华。所以这些我确实拥有，我过着虽非奢华，但相当舒适的生活。

Chamath: 抱歉，那指的是什么？

CZ：你看我家，客厅差不多每月都会漏水，因为房子太老了。但就目前来说，这房子现在对我来说尺寸正合适。漏水时修修就好。这种事实际还在发生，上个月就漏过。人们总以为我住豪宅，甚至还有更疯狂的。我住的房子大小合适，能容纳所有的家庭成员。我买的是二手房，转手过三四次的老房子，不过地段绝佳，大小合适、功能齐全，偶尔东西坏了也无所谓。

Chamath：你觉得这是因为务实，还是单纯不为外表动心？

CZ：我只看重功能。功能到位就行，不求华丽，不在乎风格。 颜色无所谓，闪闪发亮的金饰也无所谓。只要实用就行。

Chamath: 你会不会突然感到不安？

CZ: 并没有。 我知道自己的弱点并学会了应对。 我希望我不是一个傲慢的人。 我通常非常冷静，情绪波动很小。 这种心态让我能处理很多问题。

Chamath: 你觉得你曾在某个阶段对增长上瘾吗？

CZ: 我倒不会说对增长上瘾，但确实对工作着迷。这份工作本身确实充满成就感，回报丰厚。 我基本每天要参加 20 多场会议，包括预约的电话会议或线下会议，外加各种突发事务，还要回复推特上的用户提问。但这份工作极具价值感——那种难以言喻的成就感，既非源于金钱，也非来自增长。

Chamath: 所以，具体是什么呢？ 有些人总盯着滞后指标。比如营收是滞后指标，对吧？营收和利润只是结果，反映的是六个月甚至一年前的状况。你的领先指标是什么？那些真正能反映系统健康状况的北极星指标？

CZ:我认为核心指标是日活跃用户数。不是交易量，也不是营收。只要持续服务更多用户，就是在创造价值。我坚信产品价值体现在用户需求上——只要有人愿意使用，即使营收为零也具有价值。 任何被广泛使用的产品，用户基数越大，价值就越高， 这始终是我的核心理念。虽然你可以优化短期收益，追求短期利润，但可能因此丧失长期增长潜力。我坚信从长远来看，当大量用户使用你的平台时，价值才会真正形成——不仅是为自己创造价值。 你同样为用户创造价值。人们选择使用你的产品，正是因为其中蕴含价值，对吧？这便是我始终遵循的北极星。更重要的是，当数亿用户选择我们时，我们确实为他们提供了帮助。因此我认为：若用户愿意支付费用，必然是因为我们创造了更高价值。

Chamath: 这种快速增长也有其代价，比如其中会掺杂坏人。 你什么时候意识到这会是个严重问题的？

CZ: 我记得是 2018 年的元旦，那时我们成立才五个月，但已跃居交易所榜首。一名美国国土安全局的人员联系了我，发邮件说需要我们协助追踪黑客——那些可能转移了 EtherDelta 被盗资金的犯罪分子。 EtherDelta 是 2017 年运营的去中心化交易所，后来遭遇黑客攻击而倒闭。这位美国政府雇员发邮件联系我们时，我不知如何应对——毕竟没人熟悉与执法部门打交道的流程。于是我召集了几个人一起商量如何提供信息。 事后我问他是否能推荐一些能未来对接执法部门的人才。 他推荐了人选，但对方在美国本土。当时我们没有美国实体，无法在美国雇佣人员。 所以我们只能放弃这个人选。但关键就在于此。那就像元旦当天，我意识到这类事情必然会更多地发生，我们需要聘请有执法部门合作经验的人。

Chamath: 这种压力后来逐渐升级。快进到后来，拜登政府指控你们的核心在于—哈马斯之类组织在利用币安平台，而你们监管不力。

CZ：是的。关于这一点，我可能受法律限制无法详述认罪协议等细节。我虽非律师，但始终避免涉及法律问题。不过总体而言，拜登政府对加密货币态度相当敌视——他们公开宣称要对加密货币开战。 所以看到新政府 180 度转变真是可喜可贺。这对美国有利，对世界也有益。我不会责怪前任政府，但他们确实缺乏认知。

Chamath: 你认为他们为何如此敌视加密货币？

CZ：归根结底是恐惧未知。 我猜他们内心深处存在某种顾虑：别动摇现有金融体系、银行等既得利益者。这些行业对他们施加的游说压力想必也很大。

7、FTX 的故事：与 SBF 的恩怨与崩塌

Chamath: 从 2018、2019 到 2020 年，你们逐渐站稳脚跟。 后来你们在 2019 年于美国设立了实体。当时为何有此必要？

CZ：2019 年有新闻报道美国政府——用我的外行话讲——在追查 BitMEX。当时 BitMEX 和 Bitfinex 都上了新闻。 我记得美国政府冻结了它们约 6 亿至 8 亿美元资产——当时它们市值才 40 亿美元，这笔钱占比相当大。后来美国政府还以储备金不足为由起诉了它们。 看到这些新闻后，我们意识到美国政府正在关注这个行业，必须尽快完成注册。我咨询了多位法律背景的朋友，大家普遍认为应该在美国以注册实体形式运营。

于是我们注册了币安美国。这是独立实体，独立部署，独立匹配引擎，独立流动性池。币安美国自成立之初就受监管。 2019 年、2020 年、2021 年，整体运营都很顺利。

Chamath: 到了 2019 年、2020 年，一些其他的角色开始露头了。 SBF 和 FTX 开始崛起。 你是怎么认识他的？你们曾经拥有他公司的大量股份

CZ：我们曾拥有他们 20% 的股份，但一年后就退出了，我们并未长期持有。我记得是 2019 年 1 月在币安新加坡会议上初次见面。当时 FTX 尚未成立，SBF 经营着 Alameda。他们在新加坡水族馆举办了庆功宴，水箱里还有潜水员举着标语牌。他们当时是币安的大客户、大交易员。 几个月后，他们建议合作搞个期货平台，提出六四分成，我们拿大头。 我当时考虑过替代方案——毕竟我们拥有全部用户基础，而他们当时一无所有。本想提议 95-5 的分成，但觉得这样不太礼貌。毕竟他们仍是交易商，仍是 VIP 客户。所以我们拒绝了这个提议。

他们是大型交易商，但币安当时也是新平台，并非深耕多年的老牌交易所。他们只运营了半年到一年左右，具体时间记不清了。后来他们带着更优厚的条件回来了——大概是夏天那会儿， 我们依然拒绝。

后来他们在 11 月再次带着极其吸引人的条件回来，随后 FTX 上线了。当交易量达到一定规模时，他们表示：我们基本能按这个价格给你 20% 的份额。于是进行了代币置换——用 BNB 换取 FTT 代币。我们获得了首批 FTT 代币。

但交易刚完成不久，我就不断从朋友那里听说 SBF 在美国华盛顿圈子里诋毁我们。我当时就想：得了吧。 他们还做了些其他令人恼火的事。他们给能接触我们 VIP 数据库的客户经理开出五倍薪资。结果那姑娘跳槽第二天，我们的 VIP 客户就接到电话，说在 FTX 能拿到更优惠的费率之类。我当即联系 Sam：能不能别这么干？ 我们可是你们的股东啊。但与此同时，他却提议：「CZ，能在加密货币活动上安排一对一访谈吗？」好吧，我们是投资者，愿意帮忙推广。我其实希望行业里有多家交易所成功，这样我们就不会总被针对。 但总有人说不行。我总听到各种负面评价，诸如此类。所以一年后，大概是 2021 年初，我们发现他们宣称以 320 亿美元估值融资。我们当时想：为什么不退出呢？

实际上，我们的投资条款里有对后续融资的否决权。 Do you understand?所以我们完全可以阻止他们融资。但我不想动用这个权利。于是我提议：要不我们退出，然后展开竞争？于是我们讨论了退出方案。 交易最终敲定并完成股权转让是在 2021 年 7 月。这比他们出现问题整整早了一年半。当时我们并不知情。

Chamath: 有传言说他们很多问题都是在你卖掉股份后才出现的，似乎两者存在关联。你肯定听说过这些传言。

CZ：这种说法完全不属实。另外，由于行业竞争特性，即便身为股东，我从未要求他们提供财务报表。我属于非常被动的投资者，投资时从不干涉对方业务。我们有期货平台，他们也有期货平台。所以我尽量保持距离，让他们自主经营。

Chamath: 至于 FTX 事件，大家热议的焦点有两点：其一是赔偿方案对部分 FTX 持币者（特别是持有现金的用户）不够理想；其二是这些投资在事件后的价值评估问题。你如何看待事件后续影响？这是否反映了整个行业或加密货币的普遍问题？

CZ：我不太理解整个破产流程是否公平。网上信息很多。另外坦白说，州政府正与我们打官司，试图追回一年半前我们获得的部分资金。 所以能评论的内容可能有限。不过重申，我并非该领域的专家。但确实听闻一些投诉，比如部分中国用户不符合资格等等。不过据我所知，由于加密货币升值，按美元计算他们现在资金充足。即便当初持有加密货币的人，现在可能获得更多收益。

8、面对拜登政府的敌视与司法部谈判

Chamath： 在币安，事情是从什么时候开始变得复杂的？我是指与美国政府的关系。

CZ：他们开始向我们索要信息，我们一直都在配合提供信息。 那大概是在 2021、2022 年左右。 到了 2022 年底，气氛变得更加敌对。 2023 年初，情况变得很明朗：我们要么达成某种协议，要么他们就会起诉我们。 事情变成了谈判。

Chamath： 作为当事人，你如何处理这种压力？当律师告诉你可能面临起诉时，你的心情是怎样的？

CZ：我没有法律背景，所以必须依赖很多人的建议。 对我来说最难的部分就是缺乏经验，没人经历过这种事，你经历过一次后这辈子都不想再碰了。 如果你雇了一群昂贵的律师，他们各有专长且意见不一，每个人都想表现得自己才是那个做决策的聪明人。 而且他们习惯花大量时间分析，毕竟他们是按时长计费的。

我不是说他们不道德，他们确实想做好工作。但结果就是扯到各种支线，把你拖进不同方向。这对我来说最麻烦。 如果有人能明确指出：这三件事必须聚焦，这就是我们的战略。当时我们法律团队实力薄弱，成员年轻，缺乏处理此类问题的经验，这始终是个棘手问题。

Chamath： 那个阶段整个团队在哪里？

CZ： 我们分散在各地。 2023 年我大部分时间在阿联酋，往返于阿布扎比和迪拜。 压力非常大。 我处理压力的方法就是看最好和最坏的情况。 最好情况是交罚款达成暂缓起诉协议（DPA），事情结束。 最坏的情况是他们试图把你投进监狱。

Chamath： 但当时你其实可以待在阿联酋，那是一个非引渡国家，对吧？

CZ： 是的，这也是另一个最坏的情况：如果你不能达成协议，你选择抗争并留在阿联酋。 那样你的旅行就会受限，哪怕去另一个非引渡国家，也可能面临国家间的秘密交易。 我不想成为那种一直生活在恐惧中的人，我也不想给给我公民身份的阿联酋政府添麻烦。最坏的情况就是，你不去那里，他们起诉你，然后把你列入红色通缉令名单。

Chamath： 最后的协议是如何达成的？

CZ： 谈判持续了一年多，基本上每天都要和 12 到 20 个律师开会。 我从律师那里听到最多的话就是：「我们从未见过他们（司法部）对这种案子表现出如此大的敌意」。

Chamath：到后来你会变得麻木吗？还是会持续将它放在心上？ 你会想「为什么偏偏是我」吗？没有怨恨，还是更多地思考如何应对？

CZ：这需要循序渐进，其中有几个阶段特别艰难。比如谈判中遇到某些关键点，你必须说「我们只能拒绝」。就像—— 我们实在无法接受这个方案。对方不肯让步，而我确实无法同意，所以只能说不。

随后有几周时间悬而未决，你完全不知会发生什么——如同炼狱般煎熬。他们随时可能提起诉讼，这取决于他们的选择，而你已经明确拒绝了。 有过好几次这样的阶段。在这几周里，你心里想着：好吧，我不能去任何地方。可能得习惯这种只待在一个国家、处处小心翼翼的生活。说不定某个边境会拦下未公开的密封起诉书。有趣的是，两周后他们突然回来了，说：我们可以重新谈判。 这时你不禁想：那边到底在搞什么名堂？其实——现在回想起来，这根本是种谈判策略。

对我或任何处境相似的人而言，沉默才是关键。

对承受这一切的人来说，这种事一生只会经历一次。你毫无经验，这关乎你的生命。 他们可能对你发出密封的红色通缉令。而这将是你永远要面对的生活。他们不会——这类通缉令可能悬而未决数十年。对他们而言，这是日常工作。但我想他们足够聪明，知道两周是最佳时限。因为超过这个期限，你就会习惯这种状态。 等他们回来谈判时，你肯定会拒绝。就像在说：看，我早就习惯了。若让当事人长期处于这种状态..（有趣），所以可见他们在心理战方面相当娴熟。

Chamath： 这在心理上极具挑战性。你是如何说服自己接受最终条款的？

CZ：经过多轮谈判，我确认了一项违反银行保密规定的指控，即注册失当，属于联邦重罪。性质严重。但历史上无人因此入狱。

Chamath：抱歉，这个指控更偏技术层面。它与媒体（至少在美国）呈现的认知有何关联？媒体报道强调的是洗钱、协助他人犯罪、未履行 KYC 义务及反洗钱措施缺失，而实际指控内容却截然不同？ 这两者是否存在关联且性质相当？还是说公众认知与实际指控存在脱节？

CZ：我并非律师，在此声明仅为外行观点，可能存在偏差。我的理解是：

第一层级是违反银行保密法，即未履行注册义务。 简而言之，你们为美国用户提供服务却未在美国注册为金融服务公司。你们未向相关监管机构申报「将接纳美国客户」，这就是第一层违规。

此外，你们还存在 KYC（客户尽职调查）和 AML（反洗钱）流程不足的问题。所有操作流程都存在缺陷。这构成另一层问题——即便未注册，也必须建立 KYC 等 AML 流程。人们常以为这是非黑即白的标准，但实际并非如此。

关键在于执行质量：采用何种系统？如何开展风险评估？配备多少人力？标准操作流程如何？细节其实非常繁杂。更关键的是——据我理解——在于是否知情并协助了恶意交易。比如反洗钱程序存在漏洞未能拦截所有黑钱，但你对此并不知情。 Right?这并非蓄意协助犯罪，而是系统不够严密，相对而言较为松散。 Yes.但这种情况确实存在。

而另一种情况是：明知交易有问题却仍予以支持。比如查理·施拉姆曾为丝绸之路的罗斯处理交易，对吧。

我自己完全不经手任何交易。这根本不是我的领域。所以他们说：币安，KYC 和 AML 审核很松。这些指控我们都能认同。 司法部还想增加两层更严重的指控（指控 3 和 4），称我个人协助了非法交易。 但他们拿不出任何证据。 因此这两项加重情节被法庭直接驳回。但在赴美前，我们决定同意在法庭上就此展开辩论。 我不愿涉及保密谈话内容，但出发前我了解的情况是无人入狱。受惩罚最重的 BitMax 创始人 Arthur Hayes 仅获判六个月居家监禁。对比该案，他与客户存在更直接的互动，而我的参与程度远低于此。 基本上我在币安不直接接触客户。我通过推特与用户互动，但不涉及币安后台运营这类事务。因此我相当有信心，我们应处于相当有利的地位。

9、法庭审判与判决

Chamath： 你飞到美国，走进法庭。 what happened?

CZ： 那天早上我去了西雅图市中心的法庭。法官问我：「你理解这一段吗？」我只需要回答：「理解，理解，理解。」

CZ： 真正的博弈在于保释条件。 我的律师争取让我回阿联酋等待三个月后的宣判，地方法官一开始批准了，但政府竟然对保释条件提出了上诉。 两周后，法庭裁定我必须留在美国，不能回家。我的律师说，在他四十年的执业生涯中，从未见过保释条件被上诉的情况。 两周后法院裁定支持政府，我被扣在美国。就这样离家三个月。

我获得了在美国境内旅行的自由。心想既然困在美国，不如到处走走。我姐姐在美国有处住所，我就住在她那儿一段时间。之后开始四处游荡，纯粹为了让自己冷静下来。 三个月后，政府又要求再延长三个月。所以我不得不在美国多待三个月等待。

Chamath：那时候你的孩子们至少能来看你吗？

CZ：没有，我没让他们来。

Chamath：所以整整半年没见到他们？

CZ：是的。其实是一年没见。到了 2024 年 4 月 30 日宣判那天，政府竟然要求判处我 36 个月监禁，这超出了所有法律指南建议的最高刑期两倍。 甚至在宣判前五天，参议员伊丽莎白·沃伦（Elizabeth Warren）还在电视上公开向加密货币「宣战」，并给司法部写公开信。在法庭上，法官先是说了我很多好话。 但接着他说了一个「但是（But）」，那一刻我知道情况不妙。 最终，那两项严重的额外指控被法庭驳回了，因为我确实没有接触过具体的交易，但法官还是判了我 4 个月监禁。

Chamath： 当你听到要坐牢时，你怎么想？

CZ： 起初很难接受，我最担心的是安全问题。 媒体都在报道我是美国监狱史上最有钱的人。 监狱顾问告诉我，由于高关注度，我可能成为敲诈勒索的头号目标。 如何保证自己的安全成了我当时唯一的考虑

CZ：你会接触很多监狱顾问——他们通常是前狱警或前监狱长。还有另一类人，他们确实坐过牢，但当时是在监狱里工作。 他们不是囚犯。还有一类人确实进过监狱，但作为囚犯服刑。 你和这些人聊过之后，就能了解监狱是什么样子。该交朋友吗？不该交朋友吗？你会得到各种建议，比如有人第一天就对你特别热情，千万别收他们东西，因为他们以后会索要十倍的回报。 要是拒绝了，他们就会捅你之类的。我听过各种建议，但归根结底只能亲自去面对。

我了解到美国监狱体系极其庞大——两百万人关押在监狱里，美国政府每年在监狱系统的开支甚至超过教育经费。 由此可见美国监狱人口规模之庞大。全美 50 个州各自拥有独立的监狱体系，既有州立监狱也有联邦监狱，每座监狱都像座微型城市。我曾关押的监狱就有 2200 名囚犯。 就像个小城市。每座监狱都有自己的规章制度等等。我收到过不少建议，但多数并不实用。入狱后只能随遇而安。

Chamath：你说 4 月 30 日被判刑， 那何时开始服刑？

CZ：宣判时你并不知道会被分配到哪所监狱。法院会提出两个建议，随后你通常会收到通知函。无论你当时在酒店还是其他地方，都必须在指定日期报到。比如我这种情况，法官裁定无需监视居住，这很特殊。 因此我无需报到。只需等待寄往姐姐家的信函——那是我向法院登记的地址。

事实上，司法部在申请中要求对我实施「预先羁押」，即戴上手铐押送。我猜他们是想借此拍照作宣传。但法官表示：此人既无逃亡风险， 既无潜逃风险，也不危害社会。 I won't do it.事实上法官还补充一句：他无需监管——后来我才明白这是个极有意思的法律条款。正因如此，我服刑期满后既无缓刑也无假释，更无需接受监管。

Chamath：那段日子过得如何？遇到什么糟心事吗？

CZ：幸运的是没发生太糟的事。整体经历很糟糕，但没遭受人身伤害，没打架，也没遭遇真正的敲诈。我发现监狱顾问告诉我，进监狱后千万别加入帮派。 保持低调。你知道的，保持低调。安静点。别引人注目。我刚踏进监狱大门，狱警就说：你得找人保护。 听说太平洋岛民帮派正在招人，你或许该加入他们。这是刚进大门就听到的第一句话。我当时就懵了：这是什么意思？

第一天简直像场折磨，各种流程接踵而至。先是脱衣搜身——我之前在 CNBC 提过这事，就是那种彻底搜查。然后被带到监区，那里关着两百名囚犯。三排牢房，每排二十间，三层楼高，牢房彼此相对。 底层有个公共区域。 200 个硬汉盯着你看。你走进牢房时，其实我发现他们按种族管理监狱按族裔分组。如果你是中国人，就和中国人关在一起；白人就和白人关。 黑人则和墨西哥裔、西班牙裔混在一起。这样确实能避免很多冲突。毕竟文化习俗相近，同族裔更容易相处。不过有那么一两个阿拉伯人，他们要祈祷，作息时间不同，所以按族裔分组。 狱警和监狱方面其实鼓励这种做法，因为能减少斗殴。

而且一旦你加入某个群体，如果和别群体的成员有矛盾，会有群体代表出面协调。代表会进行沟通，就像工会代表那样，存在某种等级制度。他们会说：听着，别闹了，我们已经处理好了。

所以这套体系确实存在。但我当时完全不知情，对吧？我刚进去，一个长得像亚裔的人走过来对我说：「我叫 Chino，欢迎来到我们的车队（Car）我当时懵了：该不该握手？这算加入帮派吗？

而且这家伙是菲德混血儿。亚洲人太少了，所以他们把所有亚洲面孔都归为一类。还把美洲原住民和太平洋岛民——比如夏威夷人——也混进同一组。在 200 人的单元里，我们这组只有 6 个人。我被关进低安全级别监狱，明明应该进最低安全级别监狱——那比低一级，白领犯罪都关在那儿。但因为我不是美国公民，他们把我塞进低安全监狱，那里全是毒品犯罪犯。我即将出版的书里会详细描述这段经历

Chamath： 出狱后的第一件事你做了什么？

CZ：好好洗了个澡，吃了一顿好饭 。监狱里的淋浴间极小，门只遮住中间部分，你洗澡时很难不碰到墙 。出来后能洗个不用碰墙的澡，那是真正的奢侈。还有就是水果。监狱里几乎见不到新鲜水果，全是碳水、油炸食品，几乎没有蛋白质 。当我出狱看到一盘水果时，我心想，哇，这简直是奢侈品 。

Chamath： 你出狱后直接回了阿联酋吗？

CZ:是的，从走出监狱大门到登上飞机飞离美国，我只花了 26 分钟。

Chamath： 当时你在想什么？是告诉自己」我理解他们的立场「吗？

CZ：记得我刚获释时，拜登政府仍在执政。大选尚未举行，胜负未明，美国政策走向也悬而未决。我整整一年没见到孩子，所以到了那个时候，我只想让这一切尽快结束。我以为如果政策不变，那么反加密货币政策仍将持续。反正随它去吧。 我们总会找到生存之道。所以当时就是这种心态。

10、后币安时代与新篇章

Chamath： 那么你回来后，是否也接受了无法继续运营币安的事实？这是否也是认罪协议的一部分？

CZ:其实我能接受这个结果。卸任的过程真的非常艰难，我为此痛哭过。这辈子除了几年前父亲去世那次，再没有如此痛哭过。

但回来之后， 我反而庆幸自己不再执掌币安。现在拥有更多自由时间。若是我主动辞职，人们会说「这家伙力不从心了」。但现在是我无法继续经营币安，所以不是我的错，不是你的问题，更非我的选择。 right.但后来我意识到，人生还有其他更有价值的事可做。总体而言我很幸运，对吧？我有资源，有足够资金支持各类项目和事业，比如 Giggle Academy 这类免费教育项目。

Chamath：我想谈论下 AI，不过开始前我们先来个小结。说说你申请赦免的过程，具体要经历哪些步骤？

CZ:关于赦免，我认为没人真正了解流程。看起来根本不存在明确程序。 我甚至不清楚具体流程。实际操作是找律师撰写请愿书，列举所有理由说明你为何应获赦免——比如你被过度起诉等等，对吧？还要证明你是个好人

Chamath：赦免的意义何在？是承认过度起诉吗？

CZ：赦免应彻底抹去你过往的一切。此刻你便成了普通人。

Chamath：但申请理由可以是任何事，任何事都行。这完全取决于总统审阅请愿书时的裁量权。

CZ：我也是这么认为的。据我理解，宪法赋予美国政府或总统赦免权，具体细节似乎就仅此而已。

Chamath：有些人可能会跳到一个问题：他们想知道 CZ 究竟做了什么才获得特赦？你想澄清这个吗？

CZ：其实我没做什么，什么都没做。但我认为，没有特赦的话，币安很难以正当方式进入美国市场。我是币安及币安美国平台的最终受益人。没有特赦，币安在美国的发展将受到严重限制。 若美国想成为全球加密货币之都，就必须接纳最大玩家。不能让美国人无法接触加密领域最大的流动性池。况且我们也是最大的加密生态系统之一。我认为总统是支持加密货币的。

不仅如此，他还面临 34 项刑事指控。虽然我不清楚具体内容。我在狱中看监狱电视时，看到他被控 34 项罪名，其中一项指控竟是他把文件带进浴室阅读太荒谬了。所以我觉得他经历过拜登司法部的迫害，这可能对我获得赦免很有帮助。因为总统会感同身受。他清楚司法部当时有多激进。

Chamath： 你现在把时间花在什么地方？

CZ：我还是挺忙的。我在做 Giggle Academy，这是一个免费教育平台。我还为多个政府提供咨询，帮助他们制定健全的加密货币监管政策。 同时涉足投资领域，专注区块链、人工智能和生物技术。

Chamath：这些投资是在币安内部还是外部？

CZ：属于币安外部的 YZi Labs 项目。此外我还指导 BNB 链生态系统中的几位创始人及投资者。

Chamath：请谈谈 Giggle Academy 项目

CZ：我认为完全数字化所有教育内容是可行的，其重要性体现在数据层面：全球约 7 亿至 8 亿成年人处于文盲状态，其中三分之二为女性。 此外还有约 5 亿儿童失学。合计起来，全球约有 12 亿人未受教育，占世界人口的 12-13%。 这些群体都生活在极度贫困地区，周边根本没有学校，或是根本负担不起学费。而现有的学校质量也普遍不高——教育体系只会拉低整体水平。我想让所有人通过一个应用学习。

Chamath：这款软件非常注重奖励机制、徽章系统。有个显而易见的问题，我观察时发现，徽章就像面包屑的痕迹，指引着代币化、赚取收益和支付的方向，是我多想了吗？

CZ：我认真考虑过这个问题，但会长期抵制 Giggle Academy 发行代币。利弊权衡在于：发行代币能实现奖励机制，支持」边学边赚「模式。没错，还能激励教师创作内容。这些都很好。但我个人想避免代币化，因为—— 对吧？因为一旦发行代币，所有人都会争相购买。平台上的用户——人们会开始炒作代币。人们会炒作代币。届时我将无法分辨：这些用户是真实学习的孩子，还是只为挖矿代币的投机者？如果 Giggle 发行代币，所有人都会抛售。但我希望 Giggle 成为真正的免费教育平台，而不是代币平台，更不是什么加密货币项目。一旦有代币，人们就会把注意力集中在代币上。

Chamath：所以你的目标是通过赤字融资持续扩张？

CZ:没错。这原本是我的目标。但实际情况是某个社区项目捐赠了 1200 万美元。 1200 万美元？来自 meme 币的 1200 万美元美元。而我至今在整个项目上只花了 300-400 万美元。你知道的，捐钱这事儿很难办，要捐得有实际效益更难。我的计划是持续投入资金，直到实现完全数字化、游戏化且具有粘性的教育交付模式。

Chamath：让我问个关于 AI 的问题。 AI Agents 作为商业参与者自然需要支付功能，你曾提到这可能是加密货币最大的应用场景。请描述一下这个愿景

CZ：我认为这非常明确。不久的将来，我们每个人都将拥有数百、数千甚至数百万个在后台工作的智能合约。它们将进行交易，将资金在不同账户间转移。 Agents 的交易量能达到我们的一百万倍，而且他们根本不会用银行，因为银行根本无法支撑。

Chamath：当前 agents 可以依赖的最可行的支付方案是什么？

CZ：其实我不太确定，目前没有特别突出的方案。

Chamath：你觉得哪个加密项目能胜任？

CZ：哦，你是说加密货币。我想重申一次，这领域尚处早期阶段。我不愿点名具体项目，以免引发代币价格波动。但确实有不少人正在研发。尤其近期涌现出类似 AI 智能体社交网络的概念，热度正持续攀升。我认为这终将实现。

Chamath：说说你的书吧。 How's it going?这类项目总是比预期耗时更长对吧。写作初衷是什么？是宣泄情绪还是表达观点？抑或讲述故事？

CZ：有点杂。起因是无聊。我在监狱里开始构思的，纯粹为了打发时间。 因为我不想应付那些事，不想和人闲聊，在监狱里能让我忙起来就好。于是我开始在简陋的终端机上打草稿发给助手。出狱后发现素材足够了，再花点功夫就能成书。但编辑一本书太耗时了。

每次修改都要花上两三周。毕竟现在稿子有 9.5 万字，相当于 300 页。而且我还要同时修改英文版和中文版，耗时自然更长。不过眼下这本书的核心意义，我认为就是把故事讲出来。 我认为外界对我个人经历存在诸多误解。

Chamath：你觉得哪些误解最普遍？

CZ：加密货币领域充斥着负面报道，CZ、币安乃至整个行业都饱受抨击。某种程度上，特朗普及其政党同样面临大量负面舆论。不过这些内容在我的书里占比不大。 但我想让人们理解——从某种程度上说，通过了解我，也能从我的视角理解币安的本质。

Chamath：你对孩子有何期许？

CZ：我希望他们活得健康快乐，无论他们如何定义幸福。若他们满足于平凡生活，我便心满意足。 若他们想创业创立公司，那很好；若想投身艺术领域，也很棒；若想从事人道主义工作或慈善事业，同样值得赞许。无论他们最终选择什么道路，我只想始终站在支持他们的位置

Chamath：这和你从父母那里获得的成长方式有多相似或不同？

CZ：相当相似。我父母从不给我压力，不强迫我成为什么样的人。他们甚至不像普通中国父母那样要求你当医生或工程师——或者律师工程师，总是说」你可以做任何想做的事「。他们只说：别伤害自己，别伤害别人。所以远离毒品，别犯罪，更别伤害他人。这就是我从父母那里得到的全部教诲。

CZ：我只是个普通人。我知道自己不算特别聪明，但成功并不需要超凡的智慧。你不能太笨，但也不需要特别聪明。还有很多其他因素，比如原则、价值观、 情商等等因素同样重要。运气成分也占很大比重。但对多数人而言，你所处的环境往往无法改变。所以唯一能做的就是改变自己。只要每天稍微突破一点，不必过度逼迫自己——过度逼迫只会导致崩溃。 你撑不了多久。但要让自己保持在 120%、110%、130% 的状态区间，这个你能持久的范围。若能坚持三十年且运气不错，你很可能取得相当成功。 或许成不了亿万富翁，但生活会相当富足。

Chamath：你觉得有必要破除」亿万富翁并非如传说中那般美好「的迷思吗？

CZ：当然，绝对有必要。人生就像一张蜘蛛网图，金钱只是其中一条切线。 Right?当你拥有足够时，它就变成一根丝线——仅此而已。更多金钱无济于事。事实上，健康、家庭才是关键。还有其他能带来幸福的事物，比如价值观、贡献、积极影响。这些内在的满足感才能让你真正快乐。 这些要素都极其重要。当你在金钱维度达到足够时，更多金钱不会带来幸福。有时你拥有更多，有时则较少。